Sometime soon I'll be having a conversation with my Catholic parents in which I intend to make my case why my atheism isn't the end of the world. My intent won't be to convince them that my worldview is right; I'm just trying to dispel some of the standard misconceptions about atheists and establish in a positive way that there's way more common ground than they might realize.
I'd appreciate any advice. Also, I'd appreciate if you avoid making the obvious snide comments about how sad it is that I have to have such a conversation at all. There is a small chance they might read this, so try to keep comments respectful.
Topics I intend to touch:
- "atheism = arrogance" fallacy
- morality doesn't (have to) come from religion
- maybe some kind of ATHEISM 101 where I give some history and some different related ideas (strong atheism, weak atheism, agnosticism, deism, etc), and talk about how atheists are the least trusted group in America.
Probably before I do that I'd ask what their perceptions are - what they think about all of those things - to see how far apart we are. A huge goal of all of this is just to get us all to a point where we actually understand where we actually are. I'm very aware that in a very real way to them, they're going through a mourning process. They've lost something that they valued; they're hurting, and I can relate to that. As much as I don't agree with their assessment of the situation from a rational perspective, I am sympathic to their hurt feelings and so I'm hoping that this talk might make them realize they haven't really lost anything, or at least not as much as they think they've lost. I hope to try to convey all of that.
Something else that I'm aware might be an issue that I'm not quite sure how to handle in a positive way (i.e. without crossing the line where I have to start arguing against their beliefs) is if they say that I'm going to hell and that they're worried about my everlasting soul. Any ideas? Any quotes from the pope or something that says that if I'm a good person I'll go to heaven even if I've actively rejected Jesus?
8 comments:
Show me the religion that says you do not have to obey the leader/god/diety but can still have all the benefits an d I may join.. I doubt any Catholic texts say things like that but maybe in a few years as they are reaching out to Muslims and other religions that do not believe in Jesus. Catholicism and Christianity tend to be hard core religions with absolute right and wrong. Of course they are being watered down these days but I do not think that will help you yet. Good luck with your conversation.
im fairly certain in my research to prove i hate catholicism, i came across some writing that said catholicism doesnt care if you do good deeds, that wont get you to heaven, only belief in jesus can do that...so good luck!
i will try to find where that was from
There was just a thing on one of the morning news/gossip shows (very strange) about Jews and what they believe. And there was a woman rabbi who specifically said that as far as the Jews are concerned you don't have to believe in god to go to heaven, you just have to be a good person. She was definately a rabbi and said that. I don't know if I could find an exact quote (and it certainly doesn't seem to go along with the 10 commandments and all that jazz in the old testament) and they're jews, so they're the chosen ones and going to heaven anyway, right?
Have you actually had a chance to read the God Delusion yet? Or Letter to a Christian Nation? I know you've read lots and lots already, but both of those would be very good prep books. Except for the arrogance part, Dawkins tells us we should be proud of being atheist, which is totally not the same thing as the traditional atheism=arrogance arguement, but both of their tones definately smack of arrogance.
I am sorry that you have to have this kind of conversation. My family is fine, but I am a little nervous to tell Nick's mom that we won't be baptizing our children or sending them to Catholic school. I really have no idea about how that will go at all.
Definately good luck.
http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=87f6f9d6-4ee4-4f9a-86ff-36f5def6e7e6&f=00&fg=copy
I don't know if that actually will take you to the video, but I found it. It's mostly ridiculous, I don't quite understand the whole point of the segment, but the quote is in there.
Jews don't go to heaven. Being the chosen ones (from what I understand from talking to my Jewish friends and their parents) means that when the savior comes, they'll be resurrected from the ground. Until then, they just stay dead in the ground, no heaven.
Along those lines, though, how do your parents feel about Jewish people? Do they feel sorry for everyone who's not Catholic? Or just those who are atheist? Would they have a problem if you were Jewish? Or Protestant? Just trying to get a sense of how deep a divide you might be trying to cross.
Also sorry you have to go through this.
Thanks for all the comments. Misc responses:
- I'm sure I've seen that various Christian sects say that only those who believe in Jesus get into heaven. I don't think I've ever seen this from Catholicism though. In 12 years of Catholic school I don't think I was ever taught that Church doctrine is that only believers get to heaven.
- I tried to watch that Jewish clip and I could only get through about 90 seconds before I had to turn it off because of what worthless nonsense it was. It wasn't even worthless theological nonsense, it was just sensationalistic info-tainment bullshit on the topic of Jewish belief on afterlife. Why do I care what Richard Lewis and Joan Rivers think heaven is? Morning "news" is worthless.
-Good call Cara that God Delusion and Letter to Xian Nation would be good preps. I moved them from my Amazon wishlist to my Amazon checkout list and they'll arrive soon.
-Good questions Holly about how they'd feel if I was a telling them I'm converting to another religion instead of this. I don't know, but I'll ask and be prepared to respond to a few of my best guesses about their responses.
Thanks to all for your thoughts and sympathy.
Interesting, during my tenure in Catholic school I always thought it unambiguously clear that faith was a requirement for salvation. here's the Catholic Catechism commenting on heaven and the afterlife: "1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. . . " and "1034 Jesus often speaks of 'Gehenna' of 'the unquenchable fire' reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. . . " and "1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end." Because "a willful turning away from God" is clearly stated to be a mortal sin, and because individuals that die in a state of mortal sin go to hell, I think it's clear where Catholics stand. It looks like you might be in a bad spot on this one vis a vis convicing your parents it's ok to be an atheist within the Catholic worldview.
PS God Delusion is pretty good but almost exactly as you probably imagine it to be. Very little new ground is broken, although a few arguments - like his discussion of the shifting moral Zeitgeist over time - were things I hadn't really though about in terms of how they relate to atheism, and thus worth reading.
In Judaism, heaven is reserved for everyone who is not Hamen, i.e. of the utmost vile, evil persons. This may even include non-Jews. The interpretation of whether an atheist Jew will go to heaven is probably left to the interpretation of the three general modes of Rabbinicism: Reformed, Conservative, Orthodox. Of course, if you're an atheist Jew, you probably don't care much about heaven or what the Rabbis say anyway. But, in Judaism, the general rule is everyone goes to heaven no matter what.
As for talking to the parents, maybe it'll help to mention that there are many countries in the developed world in which atheism is the norm and theism is not; Scandinavian countries, por ejemplo.
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