Thursday, April 07, 2005

How am I losing?

How am I losing when these are my opponents? Look at this...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)
Preflop: WeepForMe is Button with Th, Ah. UTG calls, 4 folds, CO calls, WeepForMe raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.
Flop: (8.33 SB) 4s, 4c, 4d (4 players)BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, WeepForMe bets, BB calls, UTG calls, CO folds.
Turn: (5.66 BB) 2s (3 players)BB checks, UTG checks, WeepForMe bets, BB calls, UTG calls.
River: (8.66 BB) 7d (3 players)BB checks, UTG checks, WeepForMe checks.
Final Pot: 8.66 BB
Results below: BB has Kd Ts (three of a kind, fours). UTG has Ad 9s (three of a kind, fours). WeepForMe has Th Ah (three of a kind, fours). Outcome: WeepForMe wins 8.66 BB.


This is weak passive poker from my 2 opponents here. Limping UTG (UTG = Under the Gun = 1st person to act after the blinds) with A9o is generally awful, mainly for the exact reason illustrated by this hand - if you are up against a better Ace you are in big trouble. I think calling a raise from a solid player with KTo from the big blind is a pretty bad play also, because too often you are up against a better King or a better Ten. Both of these guys called flop and turn bets with only 3 outs.

How can I be losing to these guys? Its not just the passive, suspicious call stations either:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter
Preflop: WeepForMe is Button with Ah, Ac. 5 folds, CO calls, WeepForMe raises, 2 folds, CO calls.
Flop: (5.33 SB) 3s, Jc, 7s (2 players)CO checks, WeepForMe bets, CO raises, WeepForMe calls.
Turn: (4.66 BB) 8h (2 players)CO bets, WeepForMe raises, CO calls.
River: (8.66 BB) 6d (2 players)CO checks, WeepForMe bets, CO calls.
Final Pot: 10.66 BB
Results below: CO has Qh 8c (one pair, eights). WeepForMe has Ah Ac (one pair, aces). Outcome: WeepForMe wins 10.66 BB.

Lets walk through this hand from the perspective of my opponent, Mr. CO (CO = Cutoff = the person sitting to the right of the button):

Hi, I'm the moron in the cutoff. Everyone folds to me, and I look down and see a potential monster hand with my unsuited Q8. Rather than raise and risk everyone folding and suffer the disaster of just stealing the blinds, I'm going to limp. Excellent! The unsuspecting fool in on the button raises for me! I'll just call for now. He'll never know what hit him.

HAHA!!! My dream flop, J73 with 2 spades! I have a spade! Oh no wait, I don't, but no matter. I still have the powerful Queen high. Given that the button raised preflop, he'll probably bet if I check, so I'll do that and continue my trap. He fell for it, what a chump! At this point the only possible hand he could have is AK, which I can't beat yet, but I know that nobody on PartyPoker ever calls to the river with an unimproved AK, I'm going to check-raise him and outplay him. Ha! He just called my raise, he must not have anything. Maybe I'm even winning with my Queen. I am so good at poker!!!!!

Woah, the turn was my supercard. Now I have a pair of eights, so I have to keep betting. What?? He raised?? He must not know I have a pair of eights. Hmmm, $6 more? I better call this. I guess he might have a better hand than me, but that seems pretty unlikely. I'll just play it safe and call.

Darn, that river didn't help me. I'll do this guy a favor and just check my pair of eights. He bet again? Maybe he has that Jack after all. I'm going to call him though, just to keep him honest. Nobody bluffs me out of a hand!


How am I losing to these hopeless bluffing clowns? Even when they stop bluffing, they just keep hoping...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)
Preflop: WeepForMe is SB with Kd, Kh. UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, WeepForMe raises, 1 fold, UTG 3-bets, MP2 calls, Button folds, WeepForMe calls.
Flop: (11 SB) 4s, Ah, 5c (3 players)WeepForMe checks, UTG bets, MP2 calls, WeepForMe calls.
Turn: (7 BB) 4d (3 players)WeepForMe checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks.
River: (7 BB) 6h (3 players)WeepForMe bets, UTG folds, MP2 calls.
Final Pot: 9 BB
Results below: WeepForMe has Kd Kh (two pair, kings and fours). MP2 has 7c 7d (two pair, sevens and fours).
Outcome: WeepForMe wins 9 BB.

First let's talk to MP2 (middle position #2). Given a preflop raise from the SB (small blind) and a 3bet, and then 2 other people putting money in on an Ace-high flop, did you really believe that 77 could win this hand? Even when the UTG guy folds, what did you think I had? You watched me raise preflop from awful position. If you had been paying attention, you'd see I am a pretty tight player, so to raise from there I probably had to have a big pair or an Ace with a good kicker, right? In fact, the only pocket pair you can beat on the river is 22 or 33, so you must think I have that? Or maybe you thought I'd get wild with KQ? Please keep playing in my games.

Second, lets talk to trendy young man who decided after calling the blinds that he would try "that sweet move everyone is doing these days," the limp-reraise. Look son, I know you think that is a cool move to try with your 89s, but you really ought to save it for another time. Like maybe when you have a few more people in the pot, or a bit better position for later in the hand. Or maybe wait for when you have a fucking clue. Leave the big boy tools for the big boys to use. Go play on a swing set.

Ok, so in all of those hands I knew I was in pretty good shape, and was glad that my inept opponents made it easy for me. What about hands where it isn't so clear?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)
Preflop: WeepForMe is BB with Th, 8s. 3 folds, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB completes, WeepForMe checks.
Flop: (3 SB) 5s, 3s, Ts (3 players)SB checks, WeepForMe bets, MP2 calls, SB calls.
Turn: (3 BB) Js (3 players)SB checks, WeepForMe checks, MP2 bets, SB calls, WeepForMe folds.
River: (5 BB) 3h (2 players)SB checks, MP2 checks.
Final Pot: 5 BB
Results below: SB has 6c 7s (flush, jack high). MP2 has 9h Td (two pair, tens and threes). Outcome: SB wins 5 BB.


Folding the best hand is always annoying. I had this hand wrong from beginning to end. I got to see the flop for free, and immediately didn't like the situation I was in. I actually flopped the exact same thing recently (I had top pair of tens on a flop with 3 spades and the 8 of spades as my kicker. I was up against someone with AT and the Ace of spades, and it sucked.) and didn't want the same thing to happen. When everyone called the flop bet I remember thinking that I had the best hand and that I hoped a spade didn't hit, so I checked when the spade hit. It never occured to me that MP2 might have been playing a ten, and that the SB would call a bet with no pair and a spade lower than my 8.

So I was completely clueless this hand. If this was $15/30 and we encountered the same flop situation, I would have bet, the T9 guy would have raised to protect his vulnerable top pair, and the small blind would have folded. Then I would have check-called the rest of the way and won. But I don't play $15/30 online. I don't play $15/30 because I don't have the bankroll. I don't have the bankroll because I can't beat $3/6 for enough money to build my bankroll. I also don't play $15/30 because every time I've taken a shot at it I get crushed. I get crushed probably for the same reason that I can't beat the $3/6 game, which is that I don't know what the hell I'm doing most of the time regardless of the limit. So I probably shouldn't play for higher stakes against better players. Not that that usually stops anyone.

Sorry for that rant. I conclude that my cluelessness this hand was only because my opponents misplayed their hands so much that I couldn't possibly know what what going on. I'll just keep telling myself that. (How am I losing to these guys?)

So usually I'm completely clueless. But sometimes I know what's up. Observe:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)
Preflop: WeepForMe is UTG with Jd, Jc. WeepForMe raises, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls. Flop: (8.33 SB) 4c, Qs, 6h (4 players)BB bets, WeepForMe calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.
Turn: (6.16 BB) 5h (4 players)BB bets, WeepForMe folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds.
River: (8.16 BB) Ks (2 players)BB checks, UTG+1 bets, BB calls. Final Pot: 10.16 BB
Results below: BB has Qd 8s (one pair, queens). UTG+1 has 7h Ah (high card, ace). Outcome: BB wins 10.16 BB.

I've had a rough time today with JJ, and this time I knew enough to lay it down. I guess I smelled his Q, but apparently the guy who coldcalled my UTG raise with A7 did not get the whiff. How am I losing to these people?

In the next hand I combined cluelessness and a sense of smell. I smelled danger, but I'm clueless as to whether it was right.


Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter
Preflop: WeepForMe is Button with Qs, Kc. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, WeepForMe raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.
Flop: (8.33 SB) Kh, 7h, Jd (4 players)BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP3 calls, WeepForMe raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.
Turn: (7.16 BB) 3d (3 players)UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, WeepForMe bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 raises, WeepForMe calls, UTG+1 3-bets, MP3 caps, WeepForMe folds, UTG+1 calls.
River: (17.16 BB) 3c (2 players)UTG+1 folds.
Final Pot: 17.16 BB
Results below: MP3 doesn't show. Outcome: MP3 wins 17.16 BB.

Everything was going along fine until the turn. I had a decent hand got a decent flop, although not one I was entirely comfortable with. There were lots of draws, so I wanted to keep the pressure on.

On the turn, Mp3 (middle position 3) checkraised me, which sent off huge warning bells on this board, especially because I had observed that player to be very straightforward (he had the Q8 from the last hand). It probably meant he had a set, but I called 1 more bet hoping that he had a vulnerable 2 pair and I had the odds to chase it.

Then in got weird, as UTG+1 (UTG+1 = the guy after UTG = 2nd to act after the blinds) decided to 3bet it. Given his actions so far I read this to mean he had a big draw, either the nut heart flush draw from the flop since he bet at it, or perhaps he bet the flop with QT for an openended straight draw and maybe backed into the diamond flush draw also. I thought I had him beat, but when the guy caps, I let go of my hand. I'm pretty sure I would have lost, but for 17 bets I have to be pretty damn sure of it for the laydown to be correct.

At this point, you'll notice that I've been folding a lot of hands. You might suggest that the reason I'm losing is that I'm folding too often, even if the hands I've shared here all should have been folded. Maybe that is the case, or maybe not:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter
Preflop: WeepForMe is CO with 6d, 6c. 3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, WeepForMe calls, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls.
Flop: (9 SB) Tc, 4c, 7d (4 players)SB checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, WeepForMe raises, SB folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.
Turn: (7.50 BB) 3c (3 players)MP2 checks, MP3 bets, WeepForMe calls, MP2 folds.
River: (9.50 BB) 2s (2 players)MP3 bets, WeepForMe calls.
Final Pot: 11.50 BB
Results below: MP3 has Ad Qc (high card, ace). WeepForMe has 6d 6c (one pair, sixes). Outcome: WeepForMe wins 11.50 BB.


Sometimes I'll fold 66 to a preflop raise, sometimes I'll 3 bet. This time I called.

That isn't a flop that was likely to have helped anyone. Mp2 seemed to be thinking the same thing when he bet the flop, and when the preflop raiser just called it, I decided to raise. I thought there was a decent chance I had the best hand, and I wanted see where I stood. I didn't like it that the SB called 2 cold, but he later folded the turn for 1 bet, so he's an idiot.

The preflop raiser comes to life and bets out when the turn brings a 3rd club. This struck me as extremely suspicious. Given that he raised preflop, if he had 2 big clubs in his hand, I think he would have raised the flop. I think he also would have raised the flop with an overpair or with a ten in his hand, so I concluded that he must have decided to bet out with the A or K of clubs as a semibluff. I definitely wasn't going to fold, but I decided I didn't want to raise and then get 3bet by MP2 if he was betting out on the flop with a flush draw. In retrospect I think I should have raise here to force MP2 to fold a 7 or a T, but luckily he must not have had a pair because he folded. I conclude he didn't have a pair because nobody in the history of Party Poker $3/6 has ever folded a pair for 1 bet.

The river call is easy, and I win a big pot with a shitty hand, because I'm so very awesome. How am I losing to these players?

Obviously I picked these hands specifically to tell a story. Given the thousands of hands I play, I could probably pick out a few hands that tell any story I want. (Maybe I should do a followup post, "Oh wait... this is why I'm losing." I have about 17,000 hands to tell that story.)

That is what makes a losing streak of this duration so frustrating, especially when my key metrics really haven't changed at all. I could come up with any kind of theory about what is wrong, and I'd probably be able to find plenty of evidence for it. But then I'd get cute and be able to find plenty of evidence against it as well. There are no easy answers. I'll keep doing analysis both of individual hands and of my overall stats, hoping to find something that I can fix, but I'm resigned to the idea that it won't be so simple. For now I'm just going to keep playing. I think I can turn it around.

Because making unbeatable hands is so rare, playing hold'em without confidence is dangerous. Even the worst players seem to be able to smell blood somehow, even online. And so losing can be contagious and there is no simple prescription like "tighten up," "be more aggressive," or "more cowbell." I think that one thing writing this helped me realize is that my instincts are usually pretty good, and maybe too often I'm talking myself out of following them.

Thoughts?

6 comments:

Anonymous said...

I think you might be correct in that you are over-thinking yourself out of trusting your instinct. also, i think that the players you are playing are generally so clueless. when there are 50,000 people playing its hard to know if you are playing someone who has never played or if its phil ivey. they could easily make a play that you deem them experience/tight/passive/etc. where really they have no idea what they are doing. sometimes playing online is like arguing with a women. AKA dont try to use reason or be rational because it wont work. just my thoughts

oh, and definately there is only one prescription, more cowbell.

what are your experiences playing above 3/6 online? I have never gone above 3/6 myself. also, what other sites do you play on?

Anonymous said...

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Anonymous said...

Don't know.

So you seem to making correct decisions, despite the irrationality of your oppenents. So how long (and bad) is the losing streak? Could it just be a function of the cards going bad? Every once in a while, casinos will report losing quarters because they got beat at the tables, despite their advantage in the individual games. Is it possible that's what is going on here?

Anonymous said...

I was wondering the same as iceguy... what sort of sample are we talking? are your results within what would be expected (in terms of you statistical anaylsis of deviation and stuff). Seems to me if you are making decisions with + EV its only a matter of time before it evens out (and eventually gets out of the red)...

Anonymous said...

I just noticed your previous post with your statistics.

I think 17,000 hands is a decent sample... are you doing anything differently than before? It is possible you are trying too hard? I dont know...

chuck zoi said...

17,000 hands seems like a lot. But I wonder if it really is or not. I've heard of winning players having longer losing streaks, so maybe its just variance. But frankly I don't know that I understand the statistics of the situation.

I've analyzed a lot of my play from the 13,000 winning streak and the 17,000 losing streak and remarkably there doesn't seem to be much difference in my style of play. I'm similiarly tight and similiarly aggressive. Very confusing.

To Brian's question, I've played Party (and Empire), Paradise, Poker Stars, Poker Room, Full Tilt, and Ultimate Bet. I've played a fair amount of $5/10 online with unspectacular results. I've played a bit of $10/20 with excellent results, and a bit of $15/30 with disasterous results. I had 2 drunken adventures with Poker Room's $25/50 shorthanded game with offsetting spectacular results.