Our media sucks. People who got everything wrong about Iraq are still regarded as expert pundits and get even better jobs than before. Shouldn't major media be seeking out people who got everything right with their Iraq predictions?
We're so fucking backwards.
17 comments:
Considering all the diatribe above below and above this post, it's clear you're upset with well, how pretty much everything works in the U.S. And yet you never consider how things work in other countries. I don't think I've ever seen anything on your blog critisizing the politics in/of other countries. You're so disenchanted with how things go down in America but I don't think you know very much about how they work abroad. Maybe you do, but either you don't disclose it or you ignore it. I generally agree with what you say on the blog, but I firmly reject what becomes a presumption of yours that America is the center and origin of all corruption, illogicism (maybe not a word), and hypocrisy in the world. Any reasonable person would.
-Dave
"a presumption of yours that America is the center and origin of all corruption, illogicism (maybe not a word), and hypocrisy in the world."
?? where is this coming from ??
Mmmm...logical fallacies
Although, I'm not really sure what the point of it is...
It's the presumption you portray consistently on your blog.
And I have no idea what Walt is talking about. Use your words.
It is an assumption you apparently make whenever you read it, but it certainly isn't my presumption. If you're seriously going to argue that I presume that "America is the center and origin of all corruption, illogicism, and hypocrisy in the world" (and that, by your own logic I'm therefore an unreasonable person), you're going to have to back that up with more than vague unreferenced assertions.
I find it bizarre that you'd basically come on here, tell me how you generally agree with me, and then tell me that I hold a ridiculous presumption that is completely unreasonable. And then when questioned on it, you don't even back it up. Very weird.
Then perhaps, when questioned on it, you might make an actual effort to refute it rather than arguing about debating tactics, semantics, and developing an argument to make a point.
You're the one that came onto my blog and made a ridiculous claim about me. The burden isn't on me to prove that I'm not ridiculous, and it is entirely appropriate for me to point this out rather than go to any great effort to refute it.
Nevertheless I did refute it by saying "it certainly isn't my presumption." Is it your contention that this wasn't an "actual effort"? What more effort do I need to make, given that you've offered not a single bit of support for your ridiculous claim about me?
As I said in my original post, your recent burst of rhetorical complaints is evidence that you're not happy with how things work in the US. Anywhere in those posts or any others I've glanced at imagine an America as part of the whole world with which you may draw more intriguing conclusions through comparison. You think it's so corrupt and backwards in the US, but you haven't shown evidence that you know much about corruption and backwardsness in foreign countries. Maybe you do, maybe you're an expert, but you don't show it. By entirely neglecting to compare the US to any other country (or even mention) in any of your rhetoric, your happy readers can easily come to believe you hold this presumption--as I did. As you stated, this interpretation is inaccurate, so I apologize for the misrepresentation of what you don't write about.
Even if I know nothing at all about any other countries, why would I assume that we're better or worse than anywhere else? And why would my readers assume that I make assumptions? For that matter why would you make that assumption about me?
I don't live in another country, and I have no control over or direct stake in their politics. I have no doubt there are countries that do some things worse than us, and there are some countries that do some things better than us. I also know that we're a fucking sorry excuse for the collective imagine we hold of ourselves. We're not what we claim to be, and we never were.
By ignoring anything foreign you limit your ability to assess the US. "I have no control over or direct stake in their politics" is a terribly weak argument. You have no direct stake in the politics of Iran, a country that would like nothing better than to embark on another genocide and unite the Arab world in an anti-West, anti-capitalism, anti-democracy, nuclear caliphate? Really? Then tell me you don't, or tell me you do.
What the hell is going on? A weak argument of what? My criticism of the US is no less valid when informed by the worldly context. What are you trying to accomplish here?
Let's boil this down right now.
"Dave's" contention:
America is not the worst nation in the world;
ergo,
criticism of America is unfounded.
Care to venture a guess as to what I think of this rhetorical gem?
That really does seem to be where he's going with this, but I just keep refusing to believe that's actually where he's going with this, because it is such terrible reasoning.
I'm still kind of hoping this was a polite suggestion gone terribly wrong. Maybe he just meant to say that there are interesting things worthy of comment in lots of places, but somehow that message came out as a pointless attack, and then he backed himself into a corner? I keep trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but at every step he continues to say things that lead in the direction Mox mentions.
Sigh...you didn't answer the straightforward question I asked did you?
i don't care if you criticise the US, I'd just like to see it done once in awhile in the context of a more global view. Sure the US has lots of bad shit going on, and has in the past, but, so fucking what? It's no different than any other country, so then, what's your overall point? This doesn't justify anything; things should imrpove in the US, I agree with you entirely, but how would you like to see them improve? Are there ideal models of society out there in your opinion that the US could learn from? Obviously you like Canada. What's so special about Canada? In other words, why is the US, and only the US, in your bullseye?
Thanks for your time though, i won't bother you anymore.
Sigh...you didn't answer the straightforward question I asked did you?
Straightforward question?? You asked a long confusing question about Iran that was loaded with assumptions that I would challenge. And it seems so far from the topic at hand, that I treated it as a failed rhetorical attempt to make a point.
Yes, I suppose I have some stake in the politics of countries that might want to kill me, but not nearly as much stake as I have in the politics of my own country. And it makes it harder for the US to criticize other countries when our own shit is so fucked up. I'd rather get our situation under control before I start worrying about anyone else.
i don't care if you criticise the US, I'd just like to see it done once in awhile in the context of a more global view. Sure the US has lots of bad shit going on, and has in the past, but, so fucking what? It's no different than any other country, so then, what's your overall point?
My overall point is that the US has lots of bad shit going on and has in the past. How is this not an important point? The fact that it might be routine in the world in no way makes it more acceptable to me.
This doesn't justify anything; things should imrpove in the US, I agree with you entirely, but how would you like to see them improve?
If you agree that the rest of the world's problems don't justify ours, then why are you giving me shit for pointing out our problems without putting them in the context of the rest of the world?
And I'd like to see the problems I note corrected. I'd like our politicians to be held accountable for their lies. I'd like our citizens to be more interested and educated. I'd like superstition to give way to reason. Pretty much every time I point out some stupid bullshit that happens in America, I'd like America to improve by eliminating that kind of stupid bullshit. Is that not obvious?
If you're criticizing me because I'm pointing out problems but not offering solutions, that's pretty empty too. I don't know how to accomplish all of the things I'd like to see accommplished. I have a few ideas, and I'm doing a few things, but the first step is to diagnose a problem and spread awareness. I'm diagnosing problems, and spreading awareness of them. As I come to a better and better understanding of the problem, then I'll be likely to shift more to solution mode.
Are there ideal models of society out there in your opinion that the US could learn from?
I don't know. I like that many European countries, Scandanavia and Japan are much more secular than we are. I like that most other first world countries don't pre-emptively invade nonthreatening countries halfway around the world for no good reason. I don't like that Germany is trying to pass laws to make Holocaust denial illegal. I doubt there's a shimmering perfect beacon of ideal structure anywhere out there, but there's a fucking lot of room for improvement here, and the first step is to acknowledge our problems.
And you should feel free to start a discussion about some country that you think we could learn something from, but don't come and give me shit because I didn't start a conversation that you want me to have.
Obviously you like Canada. What's so special about Canada?
I recently mentioned I might move to Canada because there's a professor at a University there that I like. He's very special.
In other words, why is the US, and only the US, in your bullseye?
Because this is my home. I've lived here all my life and this is where my friends and family are. I'd much rather see things improve here than feel like I want to just give up and leave.
Because I'm plugged into the news and happenings in this country and not others. I'm sure if I was randomly given a Turkish newspaper every morning I'd have some commentary about Turkey. But since I live in America and work in America and will most likely spend most of my life in America, it makes sense that most of my attention will be on American happenings. We're not like Europe where all the countries are much more interconnected. We're in our own isolated world over here, for better or worse. I'd like to have more on an international perspective on things, but we've got enough bullshit here for me to focus on.
Regardless, I've occassionally commented on retard shit that happens in other countries. Feel free to dig through my archives, but I'm pretty sure I've expressed outrage that a woman was sentenced to lashings for being gang-raped (in Saudi Arabia if I remember right), and made fun of people who drank toxic seawater thinking it was holy (in India if I remember right). I think I've made fun of Kenyan or Ethiopian fundamentalists who protest their nation museum's collections of human fossils. Aside from this, I read some criticism of British politics and society, as well as Canadian, and South American. But I don't feel qualified to comment on it on my blog.
I think I often offer criticism of human nature, not just American nature. But hypocrisy especially annoys me, and Americans seem to think that we're so noble and just, but it just isn't so. I strive to have an accurate self imagine, of good as well as bad, and I'd want to make sure I udnerstand myself before I criticize someone else. I'd hold our country to the same standard.
I think it's especially important to note that there really is a significant portion of the population of our country who truly believes that America is a sort of Promise Land, where we are here to accomplish god's business of Christianizing the world (although some temper it, by calling it democratization). The brief history is covered pretty well in Madeline Albright's new-ish book, The Mighty and the Almighty, among others.
If Americans didn't seem so sure of our superiority, it wouldn't be so important to point out all the ways that we are not. And if we are determined to "help" other countries in the way we're helping Iraq, perhaps we should focus on giving our citizens their rights. And treating all world citizens the same as we treat Americans.
anonymous dave could have easily said something to the effect of, "hey, you think shit is crazy here you should hear about what's goin' down in Bloooblopistan" instead of sounding pissy from the get-go and unloading on adspar things that appear to be gross assumptions (according to adspar). the rest of us for a while were merely awkward bystanders watching this exchange (until cara and mox, thanks) like dudes with heavy boners drooling over lesbianic goings-ons in the dark corner of the bar. this isn't meant in defense of adspar, but as a critique on effective communication, from which i think we could all benefit (yeah correct grammar!).
cut to the chase: if you want to gather honey, don't knock over the bee hive.
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